Funny...

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Funny...

Postby Razmo » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:21 pm

...I just stumbled upon a list of answers from Pym in the Gearsluts forum, all the way back at January 2011, before the Tempest even got out.

What made me chuckle a bit is this sentence among all the answers that Pym gave the people:

"11.There probably will not be an editor on release but if someone would like to start one I will give you the CC/NRPN layout and all Sysex functions as soon as I code them in so you can get a head start."

A headstart!? :lol: ... it's been more than 3 years since that statement, and there STILL is no NRPN/CC or SysEx (well, there is SysEx, but no explanation of it anywhere to be found).

There are even "half promises" of a version 2.0 with user sample support...

now I really understand why people have become so pissed at DSI regarding the Tempest... hopes has been given to people, even before the machine hit the shelves!

I certainly would like to do an editor, so I guess that I could reply to Pym on point 11 above:

YES PLEASE! I'D LIKE THE LAYOUT AND ALL SYSEX FUNCTIONS WHEN YOU HAVE CODED THEM ... PLEASE! :lol: (whenever that may be...)
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Re: Funny...

Postby dslsynth » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:45 pm

Its not even funny. Rather its a confirmation of the fact that some features takes way longer to code than expected. Its not the first time in history and it certainly wont be the last time either. I still hope Chris will do CC/NRPN/sysex and supporting documentation eventually. But personally I have almost given up on seeing it happen any time soon.
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Re: Funny...

Postby k4d4w3r » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:48 pm

I remember, PYM said on old forum that there will be no full midi implementation for Tempest... Only those beatwide FX CC's that we already have in last beta... and this is also the reason why there will be no editor.
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Re: Funny...

Postby Razmo » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:53 pm

dslsynth wrote:Its not even funny. Rather its a confirmation of the fact that some features takes way longer to code than expected. Its not the first time in history and it certainly wont be the last time either. I still hope Chris will do CC/NRPN/sysex and supporting documentation eventually. But personally I have almost given up on seeing it happen any time soon.


The problem is not only the timeframe... later replies from Pym contradict those early statements... if it was just a matter of time... NRPN and CC has been talked about later as being problematic because it might mess with timings.... it seems that Pym took too big a mouthful back then, not knowing what would be possible with the Tempest at all.

Also... in that Gearsluts thread, he talks about giving "solid" reports to the users about when he will be working on the Tempest again... I read about one such time being "when the P12 got out"... did that ever happen I wonder? ... now we hear "I'll be back full force on the Tempest when the Pro 2 is out".... but can we believe it at all? ... I've seen countless half promises on the Evolver fixes too. The P12 has some things that need fixing as well... The P08 is still lacking Wave Reset to be more polychainable to a Tetra...

It just seems like DSI is slowly but securely building up a workload that gets bigger faster than they can get anything done... it looks like a "Buffer Overrun" is about to happen at some point if they don't do anything about it... Dave needs to hire more people, or DSI will end like SCI did back then... it's incredible that he has not learned from that experience in my opinion.
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Re: Funny...

Postby k4d4w3r » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:55 pm

I totaly agree with razmo...
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Re: Funny...

Postby Razmo » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:03 pm

k4d4w3r wrote:I remember, PYM said on old forum that there will be no full midi implementation for Tempest... Only those beatwide FX CC's that we already have in last beta... and this is also the reason why there will be no editor.


I'm fully aware what the Tempest is today, and that Nothing is certain exept for what the machine is right now, when you buy one.... I know that Pym want to fix some MIDI stuff soon, but I don't trust DSI's time promises (with good reason), and I don't count on any promises or half-promises given on features either.

I just happened to read those answers given in that gearsluts thread way back in 2011, and can now see why many have been so frustrated... including Pym I guess :lol:
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Re: Funny...

Postby dslsynth » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:10 pm

Razmo wrote:Dave needs to hire more people, or DSI will end like SCI did back then... it's incredible that he has not learned from that experience in my opinion.

Can only agree on that! The trouble is that development of new products are way more fun than the usually quite expensive maintenance of existing products. Maintaining the "fun of creation" spirit inside DSI is essential as that is what make us so well designed products.

However customers communicate way much more nowadays than back in the day when SCI were king and hence its more important to maintain a good service on the software front too. Which requires more development resources to be used for maintenance. A good and friendly talkware department is not enough. Actually solving software problems is required too.

This article may be worth reading though "backlog" is probably more precise for the DSI case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt
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Re: Funny...

Postby Razmo » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:14 pm

"But personally I have almost given up on seeing it happen any time soon"

...and that's the real danger of it all... it's like with politicians; if you only complain a bit, get used to it, and then shut up and leave it, then they are never going to learn a darn thing, and just keep doing the same over and over again.

You can take the example of the complaining we did on the Evolver fixes some time ago... it made DSI respond, and make more promises... they never kept them... I still remember Pym writing that he'd look into stuff in a few weeks... it's been months now if not years... but the complaints died out slowly as people loose hope, and DSI just quietly "leave the room" again, not doing s*** about it and the promises they gave.

yes... I may sound pissed, but I really think I have a good reason to be pissed...

... but other than that... I LOVE DSI instruments :) ... just wish....
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Re: Funny...

Postby Razmo » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:17 pm

dslsynth wrote:
Razmo wrote:Dave needs to hire more people, or DSI will end like SCI did back then... it's incredible that he has not learned from that experience in my opinion.

Can only agree on that! The trouble is that development of new products are way more fun than the usually quite expensive maintenance of existing products. Maintaining the "fun of creation" spirit inside DSI is essential as that is what make us so well designed products.

However customers communicate way much more nowadays than back in the day when SCI were king and hence its more important to maintain a good service on the software front too. Which requires more development resources to be used for maintenance. A good and friendly talkware department is not enough. Actually solving software problems is required too.

This article may be worth reading though "backlog" is probably more precise for the DSI case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt


I would agree to say, that Dave's "Gyro Geerloose" mentality is vital for DSI's success... it's good that he do not want to mess with old inventions, and that he want to create all the time... BUT! .... if he want to work that way, he will need to make sure there are enough personel to take over when he leaves unfinished products... that is VITAL if his own tail is not going to end up in his mouth someday... (no no, I know he does not have a tail, but you get me meaning :lol: )
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Re: Funny...

Postby dslsynth » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:23 pm

Razmo wrote:I would agree to say, that Dave's "Gyro Geerloose" mentality is vital for DSI's success... it's good that he do not want to mess with old inventions, and that he want to create all the time... BUT! .... if he want to work that way, he will need to make sure there are enough personel to take over when he leaves unfinished products... that is VITAL if his own tail is not going to end up in his mouth someday... (no no, I know he does not have a tail, but you get me meaning :lol: )

I think we all want Dave and the rest of DSI to continue creating like they do now (or better). But all customers want maintenance of existing products too. So go for it, DSI! Its not difficult. Just expensive! ;-)
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Re: Funny...

Postby GBR303 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:01 pm

I think there are more than enough competent souls in the user community who would be only too willing to contribute to the software dev side of things.

Like Razmo volunteering to do the editor, me looking in to custom samples. We buy instruments like the Tempest because we don't like presets, why should we put up with pre baked software?

Also I love the Technical Debt link, I have to deal with "Project Debt" on a daily basis, most of the outages we see are due to corner cutting.
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Re: Funny...

Postby Razmo » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:15 pm

GBR303 wrote:I think there are more than enough competent souls in the user community who would be only too willing to contribute to the software dev side of things.

Like Razmo volunteering to do the editor, me looking in to custom samples. We buy instruments like the Tempest because we don't like presets, why should we put up with pre baked software?

Also I love the Technical Debt link, I have to deal with "Project Debt" on a daily basis, most of the outages we see are due to corner cutting.


I agree with you ... in a sense... but I really don't think it should be necessary to depend on 3.rd party hacking of the software for it to be able to do what has been promised.... the trick word here is "promise" though because every time hope is planted in the user, it is said in a way where they can always come back later ans say "we did not promise"... in that gearsluts thread, a lot of "indirect promises and assumptions" was planted into users, even before they bought the Tempest, probably making many buy it because they falsly thought that those indirect promises and assumptions would come true some day... it even looks like DSI thought they would as well, and that should have taught them a lesson today... and it seems that it did, as Pym has admitted that the approach they used with Tempest was not a good one.

Of course now done is done... and we can't help it, so if 3rd party developers can and will do something about it, that fine, but it should never be so that 3rd party developers shall save DSI's ass from these types of bummers they do. I don't want to rely on 3rd party developers to fix what was advertized as being something that should work "out of the box", both because I think DSI are the ones to be responsible for this, and because 3rd party developers don't really have a legal responsibility to fullfill the projects they start.. DSI does.

and lastly... not all buy a Tempest with the intend of making all sounds themselves... I for one will buy one both because I want to create my own sounds, but also use others... the greater pallette of sounds I have, the more creative potential, and every soul has it's own character, so the more presets available, the more flexibility and broader character range you have to play with.
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