Old DSI forum

Topics about this forum, including requests, complaints, etc.

Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:42 pm

Sacred Synthesis wrote:Razmo, it's not the idea of complaining that's the problem; it's the amount. It's become a constant drumbeat, even when a thread is about the positive. It's like an addiction, a compulsion. I can't stand it any longer.

I used to think GS was the most obnoxious synth forum on the internet. Then, the other night I was reading the posts there on the Prophet 12 and the Pro 2, and I thought, "Gee, this is really nice. It's not all complaint, and people are actually getting along and being kind to each other." That was in comparison with the DSI/Prophet Forum.

I wouldn't suggest for a minute that the bugs and other problems should be acceptable, that we should pay for brand new equipment that's in used-like condition. But it's as if the forum has become the place to think out loud. Your ideas and discoveries are very valuable, but condense them. Your technical knowledge is remarkable - way way above mine - but you don't have to report every single detail. Honestly, I think Chris and Carson have been worn down by the shear volume of postings. Brevity is a virtue, but it's also an effective method.


If I could just believe it would do any good, I would... but I don't... but I will anyway... but it'll be without my praising DSI anymore or suggesting their products to anyone anymore. I would not feel good suggesting anyone to buy DSI pruducts knowing what I know about their maintennance support.

So you can exhale in piece dear TAO... I won't complain no more, its futile anyway. I'm pulling my nose out of the other forum, and will retire in here in my ranting thread where I'll be talking about my little audio universe instead... I need a vacation too by now.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:29 pm

Hey, wait a minute. I was going to retire here, too. I find the air on this forum to be much more healthy.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Fuseball » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:34 pm

Sacred Synthesis wrote:Hey, wait a minute. I was going to retire here, too. I find the air on this forum to be much more healthy.


Ha! I'm just at the point of abandoning the old forum too, exhausted by an argument over the differences between insulting someone's demo and insulting an actual person. :roll: I end up typing replies thinking "why on earth am I wasting my time on this?". The negativity is infectious over there! ;)
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:44 pm

I suffer from the same problem.
Last edited by Sacred Synthesis on Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby namnibor » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:27 pm

Without going into detail, I agree with all the aforementioned and the 'Lifeboat' seems to be more 'tepid' and more 'focused'. I shall retire over here as well as I feel the same oppression that exists on some other forums as well. I really do come in peace...even if I may be an alien amongst you. LOL!

@TAO- Yes, reptiles HAVE taken over the old DSI forum....I am still laughing! Thanks, I needed that!
Just an alien living amongst humanity...we are almost finished, just have a bit more probing to do.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby dslsynth » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:46 pm

I once talked with someone running a large forum on the net. He said that once a forum reached a certain size there will always be issues that have to be handled (possibly via moderation). Now well I actually do supports the critique of DSI that Razmo and others have provided as there are indeed room for improved existing product maintenance and the current chance of it happening seems small.

But we all have the responsibility for keeping a good forum spirit no matter what forum we are on and doing so can be quite hard work. And maybe the critique pressure became too much for everyone involved though that is certainly not the only problem.

Also, back in the good spirited DSI forum days there was an important difference: Chris had much more time, he was much more present on the forum and real promises with good perspectives were made. And existing product maintenance did indeed happen. Right now it seems like everyone at DSI is overloaded with tasks and further that parts of the user base is really annoyed by the current state of things. Such a combo is going to cause troubles and indeed that is happening!

The core of the problem at DSI is a design problem - the company philosophy - which is focused on creating new designs and moving forward to the next new thing - while letting the product history be handled by a bunch of friendly talking heads. What users demands are an technical efforts being made for existing products as well. A guess for why this is not happening could be a combination of the actual resources available and the challenge of integrating the product maintenance with the core of the company: designing new products.

And yeah, lets have a real battle between reptiles, neandertals and slu^H^H^H ... errr ... guess everyone now understands that putting labels on other people may not be the best way to maintain a good forum spirit. Eh!? ;-)
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby chysn » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:34 pm

I've been on vacation in Ireland for a while, so I've been lurking rather than participating. There's an old saying, "There but for the grace of God go I," which has some relevance here, whether one believes in gods or not. A forum is the people who post to it, and they bring their attitudes and manners and chips on their shoulders along with them. I always liked the DSI Forum for its civility and--if that is gone--it's a terrible loss. Maybe civility is doomed on the internet, or maybe it's just a phase.

It's also possible that customers are souring on DSI for legitimate reasons, and that general grumpiness will eventually fester on any forum dedicated to DSI. I'm not sure whether anything can be done about it if I'm committed to a liberal free speech policy. My best hope is that the Lifeboat is inoculated by the lack of any illusion that DSI is paying attention here, and that we can talk to each other without trying to catch DSI's ear with histrionics. Still, there but for the grace of God go I, I'm afraid.

Let me share this apt line from The Grand Budapest Hotel, which I watched on the seven-hour flight home:

Rudeness is merely the expression of fear. People fear they won’t get what they want. The most dreadful and unattractive person only needs to be loved, and they will open up like a flower. I’m reminded of a verse: ‘The painter’s brush touched the inchoate face with ends of nimble bristles.’
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:51 pm

There is no doubt that the reason that the negativity is most prominent on the other forum has to do with the fact, that DSI is having their "rounds" there... people KNOW they read their posts, and that gives a "channel" to the "powers that be" at DSI.... I suspect that if there was a phone booth with a direct line to god, it would be full of pissed people as well ;)

Pym, though he has a profile here, has outright stated that he does not have time to answer on things in here on this forum as well, and I believe that makes an impact (for the better?)... there is no point in complaining, if DSI is not "looking down upon us"... it's rather simple really.

That's why it's a shame that on the other forum, members end up fighting each other instead of pointing their fingers in unison towards the "heavens"... the anger and despair is really meant for DSI... but it feels like if the "nonbeliever" is not allowed to speak because the "believer" in there don't want them to... they'd rather that you just shut up and pretend to believe.

...but I don't anymore. I lost faith :roll:

So currently, I see this forum as the place to retire, and free myself from more complaining... while the old forum is "the phone booth to god" for me, and will be used for nothing else in the future... a direct channel to the DSI powers, where I will complain if I feel like it... people can sneer at me if they want, I really don't give a **** to be honest... someone needs to tell the gods when they need to "tidy up"... if the DSI god had a wife, she'd be grumpy by now for not tidying up that mess in the creator's lab!
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby dslsynth » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:16 pm

Razmo wrote:while the old forum is "the phone booth to god" for me, and will be used for nothing else in the future... a direct channel to the DSI powers, where I will complain if I feel like it... people can sneer at me if they want, I really don't give a **** to be honest...

The trouble is that there are two audiences in play here: DSI and the other forum members. I certainly understand your frustrations towards DSI maintenance policies. But please remember that the other forum members have their forum experiences affected by negative writings to an extend where it no longer work for them. There is this community spirit maintenance thing that we all are responsible for as can be read above from various forum members.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:38 pm

dslsynth wrote:
Razmo wrote:while the old forum is "the phone booth to god" for me, and will be used for nothing else in the future... a direct channel to the DSI powers, where I will complain if I feel like it... people can sneer at me if they want, I really don't give a **** to be honest...

The trouble is that there are two audiences in play here: DSI and the other forum members. I certainly understand your frustrations towards DSI maintenance policies. But please remember that the other forum members have their forum experiences affected by negative writings to an extend where it no longer work for them. There is this community spirit maintenance thing that we all are responsible for as can be read above from various forum members.


I can see your point, and that's why I decided to not post much in there anymore... I simply cannot resist if I do, it's that simple. And with the Tempest out of the house, I'll not have as much a reason to complain anymore... the DSI gear I have left works almost 100% now after the last P12 fix... the only thing that will always sit like a thorn in my side is those Evolver bugs... but they will not fix them... I'm sure of it by now, and I'd be VERY surprised if they were fixed in the future. Luckily I managed to find a work around for the edit buffer dumps, so I'll live.

But I'm forever changed in my "DSI love"... there is nothing left, lets just leave it at that.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby BobTheDog » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:17 pm

Bald Eagle wrote:
Fuseball wrote:I agree with a great deal of what you say and I don't honestly know what the solution is. DSI aren't making life any easier for themselves and I think Carson's comments were out of order too.

If anyone at my company made a comment to a customer such as he did they would likely be fired. Very poor behavior.


I suspect if anyone from your company posted on a public forum at all about their work they would be in trouble. Everywhere I have worked is like this, absolutely no customer contact apart from through official lines. I wouldn't even post who I work for!

DSI staff posting on the forum at all is out of the ordinary, I think it will probably end soon.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:43 pm

Chris has mentioned before the possibility of DSI starting their own official forum. I can't imagine a better time for doing so than now. Sadly, it would be best for everyone and would avoid a lot of confusion if they withdrew from these two forums and stayed only on their own. But DSI's policy is pretty loose on this, and you can find them posting on other forums as well, at least on GS. But all is quiet these days, so perhaps they're taking a new approach.

The very first thing that clearly indicated to me that this was a bad policy was when they discontinued the Poly Evolver Keyboard. I had started a thread based purely on speculation as to when it would most likely happen (http://dsiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4142), trying to interpret the signs (such as the PEK quietly disappearing from the head of the DSI website). They offered us not a clue on the thread, and then, suddenly, the PEK was no longer available. I was furious because I had wanted to buy another one from them. That's when the problem first became painfully obvious to me, that the DSI/Prophet Forum had a non-official status; and yet Chris was there quite a bit, answering "officially" on some things, but not answering at all on other things. You could get through some times, but not at other times. I think he did it voluntarily to help us, and for a while it worked out well. But now it's just too complicated, with every one feeling the way they do.
Last edited by Sacred Synthesis on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:59 pm

Sacred Synthesis wrote:Chris has mentioned before the possibility of DSI starting their own official forum. I can't imagine a better time for doing so than now. Sadly, it would be best for everyone if they withdrew from these two forums and stayed only on their own. But DSI's policy is pretty loose on this, and you can find them posting on other forums as well, at least on GS. But all is quiet these days, so perhaps they're taking a new approach.

The very first thing that clearly indicated to me that this was a bad policy was when they discontinued the Poly Evolver Keyboard. I had started a thread based purely on speculation as to when it would most likely happen ("The Questionable Future of the Poly Evolver Keyboard"), trying to interpret the signs (such as the PEK quietly disappearing from the head of the DSI website). They offered us not a clue on the thread, and then, suddenly, the PEK was no longer available. I was furious because I had wanted to buy another one from them. That's when the problem first became obvious to me, that the DSI/Prophet Forum had a non-official status, and yet Chris was there quite a bit. You could get through some times, but not at other times.


I don't think it's that easy... Waldorf also recently made their own forum, and it's rather baren with activity... the active things happen on the Waldorf Mailing list.... it'll be the same with the DSI forum... it'll be really hard to pull the users from there and to a new forum, just look at how desolate this forum became after the old one came back up.

DSI needs to be where the users are... both sides need each otehr so to speak, and I don't think anything is going to change anytime soon.

And no matter what... whereever people know that DSI are watching, there will be complaints...
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:08 pm

Yes, I agree with everything you said. I poke around the various "official" forums - Nord, Korg, etc. - and the activity is modest compared to the DSI/Prophet Forum. But I think we all can agree that the present model isn't working, that there have to be some changes. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Chris and Carson no longer post on the forum. Perhaps DSI had a serious talk about this; perhaps Dave got angry at Carson, or angry at us. I don't know. But I would expect a change in policy now, for better or for worse.

There's always going to be an exception, though, if Chris and Carson back out of the forum; and that is, the tendency of people to describe or post the answers they received from DSI Help. That's a fairly popular practice, and it will continue to keep Chris and Carson where they might prefer not to be.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby dslsynth » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:38 pm

Two words that just occurred to me: frustration projection.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:56 pm

I don't think there is any other way out of this mess, but that DSI start taking maintennance seriously.

Sure, they can go "corporate", and cut off the direct line like the big bussinesses, but I'm not certain if it will be possible given their size. DSI need to stay in contact with their users, and nurture the relationsship... if they piss off too many users, it will start to backfire, spreading bad wordings about their products, and it'll spread like wildfire, especialy in a so concentrated forum as the DSI one.

Thus you don't talk shit at users that is complaining... you try and fix their problems, making good karma around DSI and their users. The customer is always right an old saying goes.

I'm not sure... but sometimes I think that Dave thinks, that sending out a new synth can work as company damage control... get the masses exited and craving the latest new... maybe that also works, but it will only work for a certain amount of time... at some point all the maintennance frustrations will catch up with DSI and overshadow new gear produced.

Just look at the new Pro 2 .... Dave developed this even before he waited and saw the reaction to his new oscillators... more and more people are getting aware that the P12 oscillators are not as good as was expected... an now Dave has carried those over into the new Pro 2, and probably without any improvements to the quality... had he slowed down a bit, and kept more concern about maintaining the P12, he could have seen this coming, and improved the oscillators on Pro 2.

It's disheartening to see that all the reactions from the users, that should be taken in as valuable company information, is instead being wiped off as "normal behavior" and " poignant vitriol"... DSI are too arrogant to admit it if they make a bad design or have a not so good company philosophy on something... a pity really. it's valuable information to act on.

The problem is not that users are reporting bugs... the problem is that DSI don't listen enough, and the result is therefore complaining instead. If they want to avoid this, they simply have to get better at customer care in the public forum... sure you can allways write them at support, and yes they have nice support there for emidiate problems that are hardware related, but their bug handling is equaly shit on both support and the forums... they promise and gives good intend, but nothing is done about it fast enough.

So personaly I don't believe it will be better for DSI if they build a wall around themselves... in fact I believe the opposite. Sure, those that don't want to read all the negativity etc. would have crowned days at the forum because no one complained, but it would not solve anything for those that want maintennance done or DSI for that matter. Together you could work to sort out problems... each to their own nothing happens, and that will only end in customers wandering away from DSI in the long run.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:25 pm

We could use a cooling-off period.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:42 pm

Sacred Synthesis wrote:For what's it's worth, Chris' last post on the other forum was on the 21st, Carson's the 22nd. That already suggests a change, although, maybe just a cooling-off period.


Cooling off period for sure... for Chris at least... he was destined for the antarctic :lol:

..so Chris' vacation is probably a good explanation to why he's not writing that much... about Carson I don't know... he got pretty quiet since he flipped in that Highpass thread :? ... maybe he fell into that High pass gap :mrgreen:

Anyway, I won't be complaining anymore (if that's any comfort)... I've seen the light, it does not help anything anyway. I've been rattling for the Evolver bugs to get fixed for three years, and are still being ignored, so that should be a pretty good sign right?

No... I'll be reporting bugs directly to support in the future... not that it is any better, but then at least I don't piss off the fanboys anymore... win win ... or loose loose...
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Fuseball » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:44 pm

I think an integral part of the lifeblood of the old forum was the release of beta OS updates. Without those the wait for bugs to be fixed would have been interminable. I would certainly have given up on the Tetra without them and the first P12 OS was full of bugs.

I think we will see a cessation of communication from Chris and Carson on these forums. That saddens me and if it sees an end to public OS betas then it will be an even greater loss.

It's interesting that GS appears to be full of people who love their P12s and Pro2s. There's very little criticism of either synth on there.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:56 pm

There aren't too many complaints about bugs and other problems on GS, but there are many complaints about the sound of the oscillators.
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