Old DSI forum

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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby dslsynth » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:21 pm

:mrgreen: . o O ( DSI quickie forum )
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby natrixgli » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:19 pm

There she goes again....

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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby chysn » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:41 pm

It's back up now. These little temporary outages are fairly common over there. The month-long hiatus was hopefully a crazy fluke.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby dslsynth » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:36 pm

chysn wrote:The support and encouragement have been super throughout this time, so thanks to everyone!

Its a pleasure to have this forum. The spam challenge will be getting higher as time goes and more spammer accounts will be created and maybe the forum will have less activity. Using the right tools is really where it matters.

And I too loves there is no posting delay enforcement like on the old forum.

@chysn: The old forum is definitely a bit too yo-yo compatible at times!
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby chysn » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:52 pm

The Q&A captcha seems to have stopped the spam. They're questions that an analog synth enthusiast will know, that a beginner will be able to look up without undue effort, and that a simple Google search doesn't just provide the answer.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:03 am

The other forum is again down tonight. I wonder if it's deliberate, due to the nature of the discussions.

It's difficult to point out issues without getting and sounding bitter. I think we have major problems on that forum. I like it and I hate it all at the same time.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby namnibor » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:34 am

Yes, I have seen it's down and I wonder if yet again it's just a coincidence or a passive-aggressive cause/effect from current topics?
Just an alien living amongst humanity...we are almost finished, just have a bit more probing to do.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby BobTheDog » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:16 am

The old forum probably just got far to depressed to carry on, the ratio of negative to positive got too much for it again.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Fuseball » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:48 am

It's a worrying trait with people getting angry about issues they don't even have with their own instruments. I know I've been involved in some discussions about instrument behaviour but I hope most of those have remained reasoned and scientific, not emotional.

It is dragging down DSI's reputation and it is dragging down my estimation of a couple of their instruments, and it's exhausting to read. Folks are ignoring or getting angry about sensible postings if they contradict what they want to hear. There's little point in posting anything in such an environment.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:28 am

Fuseball wrote:It's a worrying trait with people getting angry about issues they don't even have with their own instruments. I know I've been involved in some discussions about instrument behaviour but I hope most of those have remained reasoned and scientific, not emotional.

It is dragging down DSI's reputation and it is dragging down my estimation of a couple of their instruments, and it's exhausting to read. Folks are ignoring or getting angry about sensible postings if they contradict what they want to hear. There's little point in posting anything in such an environment.


And you do not feel that DSI has just a SLIGHT part of the reason why people get angry in there?

I know I'm one of those types of posters you're talking about... I don't have the problems myself, but the constant new discoveries of strange quirks makes you wonder when you'll find a problem yourself, and will need a board swap.... unless it's deemed "normal behavior" or worse.

The whole of the Tempest rant is solely due to DSI's extreme way of handling that instrument... it's clear that most of the negativity stems from that sub forum because of just that.

The P12 forum is beginning to show signs of the same, but if you look at the reason, it's because of DSI's (as of late) rather harsh comments to peoples problems... they blattantly wipe bad designs of a "expected behavior", and honestly, that pisses people off.

The new thread about the HPF problem was just technical talk, and a bit exited talk about the problem, until DSI started to reject it as a bug, and a poster and DSI started pissing each other off.

I'm not saying that the posters could not do better, but as long as DSI continue that quiet arrogant way of dealing with the posters in there, nothing is going to change.

Everyone says; "just write to support instead!"... it does not work! ... not when it comes to bug fixing, I've tried it for three years, they just give you hope and nothing happens, so there really is no other option than to complain about it on the forums where other potential users can read it and be warned about their maintennance issues... yes, it devaluates their reputation, and rightfuly so! ... I really HOPE it will, as long as they don't take their customers more seriously when it comes to bug fixing.

Sure it's a pain in the ass to have to look at all that complaining, when you do not have the problem yourself... but in my point of view that's a selfish thought really... but if anyone has a better idear of how to make DSI take their maintenance responsibility serious, I'd really like to hear it. I don't like complaining at all, but I feel forced to do it, and sometimes I help others put the knife to DSI's throat so to speak because I feel their frustration.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Bald Eagle » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:11 pm

Some companies are more responsive in a positive way to forum postings than others. DSI does not respond to criticism very well and that is simply their nature. Moog on the other hand is one of the most responsive in my opinion. I'm not sticking up for DSI, just saying that's the way it is.

Although a constant stream of negative posts can be a bit exhausting and counter productive it does provide a great deal of valuable information about an instrument and the company. DSI will not change anytime soon any neither will the owners of the instruments.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Fuseball » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:48 pm

I agree with a great deal of what you say and I don't honestly know what the solution is. DSI aren't making life any easier for themselves and I think Carson's comments were out of order too.

Every issue with the newer instruments does indeed make me wonder whether I will experience the same issue... in this case to the point of selling the P12 and sticking to instruments I know and trust. I haven't joined in with the HPF argument because I have nothing factual to add and it gives an inaccurate representation of the problem if I start to make a fuss over it when I don't have the same behaviour. That said, I understand why you would want to make DSI take notice, as it underlies the bigger issue, which is their limited resources and unbalanced prioritisation of new design over long tail support.

Personally, I was encouraged by their eventual handling of the 11kHz spike issue. A number of us on the forum tried to be as scientific in our analysis as we could be, and it resulted in a responsible attitude to board swaps and an OS change that reduced the problem. I know several people, yourself included, saw that undocumented OS change as a cover-up of a hardware fault. That's a very paranoid view of them admitting there's a problem and trying to fix it. Of course, I'd love to know what the cause of that spike is/was but at least it finally got recognised as a fault.

I don't think they've handled the HPF issue anything like as well. Carson's a really nice guy so I can only imagine what caused him to react like that. They're only human I guess. It wouldn't surprise me if the P12 is proving more of a support nightmare than they anticipated. Maybe there have also been Pro2 problems we don't know about? Whatever the problems are, I'm unconvinced that vitriol triggers the right response. As a software developer as I was always more inclined to respond to calmly reasoned bug reports and I'm sure the folks at DSI, understaffed as they are, are the same.

I think DSI are at a bit of a crossroads. I would like to see them strive towards the professional attitude of someone like Moog but I don't know if they want that or what would be a catalyst for making them change. I also wonder whether their instruments could benefit from more rigorous testing before they go to market. It does make me question whether I would be an early adopter of a another DSI synth again.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. :)
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Bald Eagle » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:52 pm

Fuseball wrote:I agree with a great deal of what you say and I don't honestly know what the solution is. DSI aren't making life any easier for themselves and I think Carson's comments were out of order too.

If anyone at my company made a comment to a customer such as he did they would likely be fired. Very poor behavior.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:11 pm

I'm just thru with DSI... I don't believe they'll fix any of the bugs I've reported, as they fully ignore any question about them... good or bad.

It feels like they have become so tired of me, that they'd rather not fix them, just to piss me off... I don't know this of course, but it's the feeling I get when I read such comments as "don't think we'll want to help you, when you're talking shit to us!", as Carson wrote to another frustrated user.

I sense the arrogance hidden behind the "forum smiles" they put up quite clearly, though they try well to hide it (Carson being worst at hiding it).

When the latest P12 fix came up, all reported bugs I knew off had been taken care of... exept the one I reported about oscillator unison phasing problems.... and I believe that when the next Tempest OS comes out, the dump of sounds thru MIDI DIN will still not be working, and likewise my 3 year problems with Evolver bugs will most likely never be fixed either.

So I've given up... I'm moving to another company that will take my bug-reports serious... MOOG.

I know I sound pissed... and I am.... rightfully in my opinion.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby dslsynth » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:25 pm

Well I think multiple things are going on with DSI. First of all Pro2 was surely a hard journey for everyone involved. Its a design masterpiece but I am pretty sure with all the new features that it was not fun for anyone at DSI perhaps except for Dave (if one reads between the lines in his Stanford University talk).

Judging from Carsons response on this forum on Pro2 manual help and the old forum on the P12 HPF issue it seems that he is very hard pressed. Wonder what is going on DSI? It could be loads of ambitious deadlines set by Dave, an increase in unfriendly responses from customers or perhaps something internal to DSI that presses everyone involved. I am also wondering how their sales are developing.

Regarding the loud critique of DSI existing product support I can see the point of both those posting the critique and of those who says its poisoning for the forum climate way too much. Both are essentially right: The negative tone takes up too much space in the forum bandwidth and the existing product maintenance certainly needs improvement. The only question is how to improve on things as there is not much we customers can do besides shutting up and/or selling the stuff annoying us. The only one who can improve on things are DSI.

At some point in the past I was trying to defend DSI when I could because what is needed is more software development resources at DSI and more customer patience until said extra resources gets up to speed. However I have come to a point where DSI really need to defend themselves and where I still want to see DSI make The Right Decision (TM) on the software development and product maintenance front as they are the only one who can make any difference at all to improve the current situation.

My own feelings at the moment is that while I still love DSI I am not sure if they will ever make a new module that interests me so much that I really want it (hybrid oscillator section, multi-timbral or at least mono mode, preferably high resolution NRPN access to some of the destinations per voice, ...). Besides, that doesn't really matter much as long my current synth spending budget is as it is. I am also somewhat concerned about the current sysex format documentation level though I have written a C++ program to capture most of the missing information.

@Razmo: I completely understand your feelings about DSI but I also wonder if it would be better for you to calm down a bit as we all know what the problems with DSI are but where forum climate maintenance could be more important on the shorter term. Really love your rambling threads and was very impressed with your HPF kicks (thanks again!). Not to mentioning getting Tempest sound format out of Chris!

@DSI: Hope you guys, gear and families got well past this nights rattle show. . o O ( :shock: )
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:44 pm

I'd say that the conversations on the other forum have had a bad effect on DSI sales. It may be only slight, but it's got to be the case. Even in my case, I had been quite optimistic about the Pro 2. I was determined to get one, even though I wanted to listen to many more videos first. But the excitement is totally spoiled now. I know some will say, "Well, that's entirely DSI's fault." I'm not so sure it's that simple.

I bought all my DSI synthesizers (all four models of the Evolver, both Prophet '08 models, Mopho, and Tetra) based entirely on reviews and videos. The forum played little or no part in my decisions, and I liked it that way; my decision-making was simple, direct, and uncluttered of high emotions. Predictably, I made the right decisions. But, as some of us remember, we faced very serious problems with our instruments' endless encoders. We reported it on the DSI/Prophet Forum, and DSI responded first with free little tubes of deoxit, then with replacement parts, and finally with beautiful new potentiometer editions of the instruments. I thought the new improved Poly Evolver Keyboard was breath-taking in appearance and performance, and, to this day, my two units are flawless. Yes, some bugs remain, but those are not a problem for me.

I'd like to return to that former approach of assessing DSI's future offerings: video demonstrations, professional reviews, but very little forum chatter. I could miss out on some important information - such as the problems of a new instrument. But, as I've said many times, it's predictably reckless and foolish to buy an instrument with a low serial number. Common sense would say, "Wait a while." That's how I avoid the problems that are painfully and relentlessly discussed on the forum. I simply wait a year, maybe two, until all has been worked out. But some one will say, "And who do you think is working out the problems while you're waiting?" Well, that's some one's choice. If they want the thrill of having a low serial number, or if they've got such a case of GAS that they can't sit tight, then that's the price they'll pay; they'll be one of the laboratory rats for DSI and its customers, and they'll post on the forums ad infinitum about bugs and other problems. All I'm saying is, I've got it figured out. If you haven't, then I guess everybody will be reading your complaints on the forum. I won't be.

I don't have the answers for our problems. I strongly dislike the way DSI releases new products in what I would call "unfinished" condition. I made this objection long ago on the other forum and was told by a number of you that I needed to realize this was how companies now operated, and that it was unrealistic of me to expect such products ever to be without bugs. Attitudes seem to have shifted now, so that DSI's method is presently denounced as unconscionable. Well, I'm not defending it, but neither do I think we're helping the matter. Nor am I defending Carson's responses, but I can understand his anger with people. I felt myself getting angry too. There's a right way to fix these problems, but it isn't the way any of us have been following. I would suggest that DSI needs to shape up and that some of us need to shut up. I'm going to stop before I say any more.
Last edited by Sacred Synthesis on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:33 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby dslsynth » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:01 pm

@Sacred Synthesis: I think you got it just right: Both sides have to make an effort here. And for DSI it will certainly not be easy as Dave need to change his fundamental views on how to operate his company. But I cross my fingers that all involved will eventually see the light and make The Right Decisions (TM)!
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:18 pm

I should add that I'm not giving up on DSI. They have some problems, for certain, but they also have their strengths, and I still think the strengths outweigh the problems.
Last edited by Sacred Synthesis on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Razmo » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:25 pm

dslsynth wrote:Well I think multiple things are going on with DSI. First of all Pro2 was surely a hard journey for everyone involved. Its a design masterpiece but I am pretty sure with all the new features that it was not fun for anyone at DSI perhaps except for Dave (if one reads between the lines in his Stanford University talk).

Judging from Carsons response on this forum on Pro2 manual help and the old forum on the P12 HPF issue it seems that he is very hard pressed. Wonder what is going on DSI? It could be loads of ambitious deadlines set by Dave, an increase in unfriendly responses from customers or perhaps something internal to DSI that presses everyone involved. I am also wondering how their sales are developing.

Regarding the loud critique of DSI existing product support I can see the point of both those posting the critique and of those who says its poisoning for the forum climate way too much. Both are essentially right: The negative tone takes up too much space in the forum bandwidth and the existing product maintenance certainly needs improvement. The only question is how to improve on things as there is not much we customers can do besides shutting up and/or selling the stuff annoying us. The only one who can improve on things are DSI.

At some point in the past I was trying to defend DSI when I could because what is needed is more software development resources at DSI and more customer patience until said extra resources gets up to speed. However I have come to a point where DSI really need to defend themselves and where I still want to see DSI make The Right Decision (TM) on the software development and product maintenance front as they are the only one who can make any difference at all to improve the current situation.

My own feelings at the moment is that while I still love DSI I am not sure if they will ever make a new module that interests me so much that I really want it (hybrid oscillator section, multi-timbral or at least mono mode, preferably high resolution NRPN access to some of the destinations per voice, ...). Besides, that doesn't really matter much as long my current synth spending budget is as it is. I am also somewhat concerned about the current sysex format documentation level though I have written a C++ program to capture most of the missing information.

@Razmo: I completely understand your feelings about DSI but I also wonder if it would be better for you to calm down a bit as we all know what the problems with DSI are but where forum climate maintenance could be more important on the shorter term. Really love your rambling threads and was very impressed with your HPF kicks (thanks again!). Not to mentioning getting Tempest sound format out of Chris!

@DSI: Hope you guys, gear and families got well past this nights rattle show. . o O ( :shock: )


Honestly... I was a bit flabbergasted, that I got that info at all for the Tempest... It helped a lot, but I've asked for the same piece of snippet-code for a Beat since then, and... no answer... I don't get why I get half the solution, and not the other. It may be that Pym is to busy, but I can see he was not too busy to read my asking for it... if I had gotten an "I'll find it when I get the time" that would have been acceptable... the other response (none) makes me feel unimpotant as a customer, especialy when the message is read. Surely there must be time enough to give a response?

I understand your concern about forum climate, and that's also why it hurts everytime I feel the need to complain.. I DO not like to complain, but do you really think we'll be heard by DSI by not complaining? ... I'm not a DSI fan enough to be that naive, especialy not with the countless examples that DSI promise and inspire hopes that is never kept.

So what choice do I have? ... I can shut up, and never get the maintennance fixes, or I can complain... and never get them... at least with the last solution, DSI will know I'm not pleased with them, and I'll feel I've fought as much as I could.

The problem for me here is, that I need to make a choice of how much "liked" I want to be on the forums, because it seems that some people cannot understand my problem with DSI... so it's a constant measurement for me, and it pisses me off that I have to take the bashing for DSI's bad maintennance policies... but that's obviously just how it is, so the choice is mine nonetheless, and I feel I'm loosing... people will rather live in the illusion of DSI the allmighty, than what the reality shows... and so I have to choose to stop complaining unless I want everyone to see me as the "endless complainer of MIDI bugs". :roll:

I don't want to use more resources on fending for my rights to complain about this, so I'm just keeping my hands off DSI products from now on... it'll be hard, but they leave me no choice.

There is just one basic problem... I like to talk about the good things on DSI products, but I really don't want to help them with reputation, since I feel I'd be giving users a wrong view of DSI.... if I am to talk about DSI's good sides, I want to talk about the bad ones as well ... tell both sides of the story as any good journalist would, and that becomes a problem when fanboys start to show up, that would still be smiling if half their pruduct was not working.
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Re: Old DSI forum

Postby Sacred Synthesis » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:48 pm

Razmo, it's not the idea of complaining that's the problem; it's the amount. It's become a constant drumbeat, even when a thread is about the positive. It's like an addiction, a compulsion. I can't stand it any longer.

I used to think GS was the most obnoxious synth forum on the internet. Then, the other night I was reading the posts there on the Prophet 12 and the Pro 2, and I thought, "Gee, this is really nice. It's not all complaint, and people are actually getting along and being kind to each other." That was in comparison with the DSI/Prophet Forum.

I wouldn't suggest for a minute that the bugs and other problems should be acceptable, that we should pay for brand new equipment that's in used-like condition. But it's as if the forum has become the place to think out loud. Your ideas and discoveries are very valuable, but condense them. Your technical knowledge is remarkable - way way above mine - but you don't have to report every single detail. Honestly, I think Chris and Carson have been worn down by the shear volume of postings. Brevity is a virtue, but it's also an effective method.
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